Please wait one moment . . .
About the Book (The Feast)
About Me
- Josh Graves
- Nashville, TN, United States
- I'm the best friend of Kara, father of Lucas, minister, author (The Feast), life-long Piston fan . . . I am the Preaching and Teaching Minister for the Otter Creek Church (Nashville) and I am working on a doctorate degree (second year) at Columbia Seminary studying the relationship of postmodernism and Christianity.
Some of Josh's Published Work (essays, books, articles, reviews)
Links
- Barbara Brown Taylor
- Brian D. McLaren
- Bronx Fellowship of Christ
- Chris Lindsey
- Columbia Seminary
- Donald Miller
- Doug Sanders
- Dry Bones--Denver
- Duke Chapel
- Focus: HOPE
- Greg Boyd
- Greg Stevenson
- Greg Taylor
- Jason Steckel
- Jesus Creed
- Jinja Mission Team
- John Mark Hicks
- John York
- Jonathan Storment
- Josh Ross
- Kara Graves (My wife and best friend)
- Kibo Group
- Larry James Urban Daily
- Lauren Winner
- Lee Camp
- Luke Norsworthy
- Mark and Lori Manry
- Mark Love (Missional Church)
- Mike Cope
- My Twitter Page
- New Wineskins Magazine
- Otter Creek Church
- Patrick Mead
- Randy Speck
- Rochester Church
- Rochester College
- Rubel Shelly
- Sean Palmer
- Stockman Family
- The One Campaign
- TOKENS (Lee Camp and the Arts)
- Wade Hodges
- Walter Surdacki
- Will Willimon
Blog Archive
-
▼
2008
(192)
-
▼
February
(15)
- Confession and Baptism
- One Master Writer
- Upside Down Leadership
- Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up?
- Shaun Hover
- Praying for Kenya
- Skateboarding for Jesus
- Sir Charles Stirs the Pot
- Iraq
- Speaking Jesus (Out of Both Sides of Your Mouth)
- Winzell
- Daughters
- Priceless (v.2)
- Super Tuesday, There Will Be Blood, Lent
- Chick Flick
-
▼
February
(15)
26 comments:
I am afraid of what would happen if we left. I have no idea how strong the opposing forces are; would they follow us here if we left? I obviously would love for the war to be over, but I don't know that us leaving would end the war; I'm afraid it would just change the location of it.
i don't pretend to know everything, but I think I would lean towards a gradual exit, but with the timeline being closer to a year than 2.
I don't think our troops should be there, I am one of those that love the soldiers but don't agree with the war, but I realize the danger in a absolute, quick exit.
Well, I think even if you opposed the War to begin with, I think we have to stick around long enough to "fix our own mess". I believe that if we exit too quickly, we risk the very real possibility of genocide or a Darfur like situation. I believe that withdrawal should be based on when the situation will allow, rather than a specific time table. I certainly sympathize with those who want to get the soldiers out of harm's way and bring them home, and I share their sentiments. However, I think that setting a specific timetable is the wisest policy. I don't think it sends a message we want to the terrorists.
I believe we *are* making real progress in Iraq, especially since the troop "surge". Maybe in six months to a year we'll be at the point where we can responsibly set a time table for withdrawal, but I don't think we're at that point right now.
So I choose (d) a gradual troop withdrawal when it is responsible and safe to do so. The possibility always exists that once the Iraqi government is self-sustainable, that we could negotiate an agreement with them to setup a permanent base in Iraq, much as we have in many other nations around the world, but that is definitely a discussion for another day.
I choose D too, gradual withdrawal when it is safe to do so for both us and for the Iraqi people.
You make a commitment, you keep it you never leave people dangling in the wind just because some people are unhappy and want to change your mind.
As a teacher I should have guessed that leaving options, a, b, and c ensured some to choose d.
I agree with Kara that loving and supporting the troops is different than the broader discussion of the war (should we be there instead of Darfur, etc.).
I am interested, one day, in a healthy discussion about the criteria that must be in place to go to war in the first place.
That we stayed out of Rwanda, and have done virtually nothing in Darfur really disturbs me. If we suddenly found oil in one of these places . . . who knows.
That's why I've been involved in the Northern Uganda Summit the last two years in Washington D.C.
Pip, I think your description of why some people want to leave is too simple:
"You make a commitment, you keep it you never leave people dangling in the wind just because some people are unhappy and want to change your mind."
I think a case can be made that it is not possible for us to "fix our own mess", as crazysaint called it...that the fact that we are occupying Iraq and artificially promoting shia over sunni (or vice versa) and temporarily but not sustainably (neither in terms of our commitment not in terms of permanent solutions) stabilizing a society in chaos...is a major contributer to the mess in itself.
Yes, the surge has had some success in terms of reducing violence (reducing it from one ridiculously high level to another lower but still intolerably high level), but it isn't clear that there has been much of the real progress it was supposed to enable (political advances).
Frankly, I don't know what we should do, but our experience so far tells me that we could stay in Iraq for a very long time and still not be able to fix our mess.
This is a hard one for me. All we seem to hear about is how many soldiers are dying. We never see any of the good that is coming from our troops being there. So without a real digging into the reasons, most people say "get them the HELL out of there" I know there is good coming from them bein there, but didn't God say that that part of the world would NEVER be at peace? Can someone claify that?
What to do in Iraq? I dont know, but we will have soldiers there for my lifetime. I believe, just like Japan, S. Korea, and many other places.
Please do a quick yahoo search, "oil in darfur". And see that there is no comparison between Darfur & Iraq. Atleast regarding oil.
Quick facts..
China is second to the USA for oil importation. 30% of China's oil comes from Africa, 8% from Darfur.
Many people believe the fighting in Africa is actually OIL related, and nothing more. Some say USA is the only country calling Africa a "genocide" situation, others call it human rights violations. I mention this because they feel a USA & UN intervention and over throw of some African governments is being set up as a solution to "genocide" when its really about oil control.
Adam Miller
There is oil in Darfur but the major difference is that Darfur is not in a region over-flowing with oil as is Iraq (and her subsequent neighbors).
It's always interesting how many people (generalization here . . .not directed at anyone in particular) avoid talking about Rwanda. I believe America will stand in judgment for not getting involved in what amounted to 900, 000 (yes, you read that right) deaths in a span of 60-90 days.
I'm curious to hear from other folks what the "criteria" should be for entering war. For example, two things clearly pushed the U.S. into WW2: Hitler's regime and Pearl Harbor. Is the Iraq war more comparable, in your opinion to Vietnam or WW2?
Sean--there is precedent for your comment: Jesus talks about "trouble in this world," etc.
I'm curious how Christians in other countries view Iraq, Darfur, Rwanda, Northern Uganda, China, Iran. I bet we could learn something valuable.
All that being said, I don't want to leave the impression that I'm anti-American. Any time I've raised these kind of questions I'm labeled "anti"--just the opposite is true. I think so highly of America as a "great experiment that worked" that I want us to live into our identity an history. Sometimes, that means having tough discussions and disagreements . . .as was the case with the Revolution, War of 1812, Civil War, Women's Suffrage, WW1 and WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Iraq 1 and Iraq 2.
I should've added "Civil Rights of the 1960's" in my litany.
Josh, to me that is what makes America great. We take difficult topics, and come up with different solutions and opinions on how to do what is best for everyone. Our hearts are in the same place while our solutions and visions are different. I enjoy talking with you.
One view I have: Approval of Mr. Bush and going into Iraq was near record highs at the time. Why? We were all convinced of the "facts" and it needed to be fixed. Now that knowledge has changed, and then the opinions of it next.
Could it be possible we are not hearing the entire story of the conflicts in the Darfur region?
Could it be possible that the US is arming one side right now, and the Chineese the other? And it actually is about Oil, political agendas, or access to cheap labor.
I have not made a decision but feel the truth usually lies where no one is looking. (Or not being shown by our media).
Good conversation though.
Adam Miller
Adam,
Good points. "Charlie Wilson's War" unpacks this kind of discussion, from what I'm told. I haven't seen it...yet.
Rwanda . . .the Clinton's, Congress, the American People. . . we really dropped the ball on that one.
Charlie Wilson's War was fantastic! The book seems to be right on track with the movie too. Well worth the watch or read...there is lots of swearing and a little nudity so anyone that takes issue with that could read the book.
Too the point, Gradually but Quick Exit I think that is answer B+
There was no visible way to walk out of Vietnam with a victory. Afghanistan was the same way for the Russian (we funded to make them bleed money to defeat communism) and I think the same about the US in Iraq. I am all for staying but I think there needs to be an end in site or we will continue to lose money and lives for no clear victory.
Kyle:
How would Charlie Wilson end/deal with the War in Iraq?
You wrote: "I am all for staying but I think there needs to be an end in site or we will continue to lose money and lives for no clear victory." Would he hold a special secret hot tub meeting of important Big Whig's ?
Graves when you figure out this one please let me know. Its seems that no one really has a clue of how to bring some resolution to this mess. I do think if you pulled out w/o helping to establish a stable government then hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost in vain.
Interesting discussion so far.
jonmower: I agree that there is no guarantee that our short term gains will translate into long term advancement; however, I think that given that the surge has reduced violence to a level that is at or near the lowest point since the start of the war that it is worth giving it more time. Not an infinite amount of time, but as long real progress is being made towards stabilizing Iraq, we should continue giving it time to work.
I believe that a key component of any real long term success is giving the Iraqi people the confidence and security to return to life as "normal" and in significant portions of Iraq that is happening for the first time.
josh: You asked if Iraq is more comparable to WWII or Vietnam. I don't really think its directly comparable to either. Though, I think it could "turn into" a Vietnam if we leave prematurely. We got into Vietnam to clean up the mess France left when they withdrew from a difficult situation and left a power vacuum. I believe that if we leave Iraq prematurely, it could easily turn into another Vietnam or even a Darfur. I absolutely agree that we should be doing something in Darfur; however, if you believe we should be in Darfur *instead* of Iraq, what if leaving Iraq would cause a genocide there?
Josh, I absolutely agree with you that difficult discussions like this and ones we've had before are essential to America continuing to be strong and thrive. If we don't face up to our worst failings they will destroy us.
There have definitely been failings and mistakes made in this war; arguably including the war itself. However, I don't see any easy solution to fixing it.
On a side note, those who are supporting Hillary or Obama in hopes of a quick withdrawal may be disappointed. Even Obama, who has been most vocal in arguing against the war (he was one of the few senators who voted against it from the beginning) and has called for troop withdrawal has allowed for the possibility that once he gets in the Whitehouse he could receive information that would change his mind.
Josh, I love the fact that you are gaining Charlie Wilson knowledge though I suspect that Wikipedia might have helped.
Charlie Wilson would have invested in the rebuilding effort of Afghanistan years ago and we probably would not been in this mess. That would have given him much more time for his Hot Tub meetings.
Being a veteran myself, having a brother in civilian clothing over there (after being in uniform over there) and having several brothers and sisters in arms on Iraqi soil, I disagree with those who say we should've never been there, and should run away.
I disagree with the statements we have to fix 'our own' mess...recent proofs that Saddam had and was revamping his WMDs has gone missing in the news...but, as one of my buddies say, "We came for a purpose, that purpose was completed. Now, as is the want of any American solider, we are going to leave them better off than when we left.
I disagree with the public announcements of troops withdrawals, Congressional oppositions and accusations...
But, I accept everyone's opinions and appreciate the candor in which they were given. I have learned in the last few years of friends who have fallen, that I worked beside and trained beside. They will be missed, the families they left behind grieved, and the cause to which they fought still unrealized.
We should leave when the Iraqi people can support their country's freedom.
Ask most of the soliders on the ground over there and they'll tell you the same.
"I am an American Solider, and I will not leave my post until the job is done."
I appreciate that all of us here are Americans, and love and care for our troops that are in harms way. We pray for their safe return and are eager to have them back in this country's loving arms.
These are just my thoughts and my feelings on the subject and not mention to diminish or tarnish anyone's else.............
Peace,
Jim
navalpride: I want to say that I have nothing but the deepest respect, admiration and gratitude for those who have served this country, especially those who served in harm's way. Thank you for everything you, and those like you, have done to ensure that the rest of us have the freedom that we have.
I would hate for my words to in any way suggest that the soldiers on the ground have done anything but an outstanding job. You guys have performed a tremendous, and often thankless, duty in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I do not believe that the majority of the news coverage of the war has even remotely done justice to what you have done over there.
Luke: Help me here. What are some criteria?
Crazy Saint: I do not think Iraq could turn into another Darfur--I just don't see that happening.
History repeats itself. Sometimes we see what we want to see but Iraq has parallels in our past.
Those supporting Hillary, Obama, or McCain, do so, I presume because of a host of issues, not merely one. Good point, however.
Navalpride: As one who has a brother-in-law about to head to Iraq (he's a Major in the Army) and a brother-in-law as a Marine I'm aware of the deep sacrifice made by many. I am endebted to you.
And, I always find it interesting to enter into these important discussions with veterans, for just as is true with us civilians, veterans are "all over the map" regarding Iraq, U.S. Foreign Policy, etc.
Perhaps I'll do a few blogs on the non-violent perspective and the Just War tradition in Christian Thinking and see if that has anything to do with what Christians believe regarding Darfur, Iraq, etc.
One thing is for sure. Holding a conviction because of one's study is different than expecting a nation/empire to adhere to said conviction.
That discussion should be interesting.
I was originally for the invasion of Iraq and still think we did what was logical based on the intelligence that we had. We removed a brutal dictator, and I think we did the right thing. That said, I've grown to take issue with us being over there.
My issue with the war now is that the Iraqis have been given every chance to step up and take control of their own country. In many ways, they haven't. If they truly want democracy, they should be willing to fight for it rather than have the U.S. do it for them. The U.S. had to do the same thing in freeing itself from England.
Let's be honest, our country needs to concentrate on cutting debt. We are doing nothing now other than running it up.
And don't get me wrong, I do support the troops. I favor immediate withdraw tactically, but I also want them to be fully equipped while they are there.
My question is if we don't pull out now, when? We've been talking about timetables for three years now.
I just would appreciate more security at home. I don't want to continue in spreading our forces out over the world. It's just not wise for a sound financial future in our country.
Josh: I agree that Iraq would probably not descend to the level of Darfur. However, I do believe that the level of violence we have in Iraq now would pale in comparison to what would happen if we left prematurely.
You are probably right. That's why I raised the discussion . . . no matter how one feels about the war, simply leaving "right now" does not seem to be an answer that is best for the people of Iraq.
When i talk to my brother (a Marine currently serving in Iraq) about the war, what he says mirrors what NavalPride has posted in an above comment...
I have a hard time saying that we should just pull our guys out when I know so many of those guys are fighting with such heart, willingness, sacrifice and determination.
As much as it pains me to have my brother in the sandbox (along with his comrades), I don't think their job is done. So I vote for removal when their task is completed.
NavalPride, I deeply thank you for your sacrifice and those of your brothers and sisters that gave their time and lives. I owe you so much.
Josh, I'm praying for you, your sister and rest of your family as your brother-in-law prepares to ship out....
ps- you are going to the summit in DC again? ... solo trip or want to get a group together?
Post a Comment